Episode 83
Navigating Contracts: Protecting Yourself in Today's Market
In the latest discourse presented by Eric G and John Dudley, the conversation delves into the complexities of the contracting landscape amidst current market challenges. They engage with Joseph Brickman from Williams and Tuesink, a seasoned attorney specializing in land use and real estate litigation. The trio explores the critical importance of contracts in safeguarding the interests of contractors and homeowners alike. As they navigate through recent issues in the marketplace, Eric and John emphasize the necessity for clear communication and well-structured agreements that delineate responsibilities and expectations. Joseph contributes valuable insights on the legal ramifications of poorly drafted contracts, highlighting common pitfalls that can lead to disputes. The discussion serves as a crucial reminder for contractors to be vigilant and proactive in their contractual engagements, ensuring that all parties are adequately protected from potential legal entanglements. Through this engaging dialogue, listeners gain a clearer understanding of how to navigate the often tumultuous waters of construction contracting, reinforcing the idea that a well-prepared contractor is better equipped to manage risks and client expectations effectively.
Takeaways:
- This episode elucidates the paramount importance of employing a well-structured contract to safeguard both homeowners and contractors in renovation projects.
- Eric G, John Dudley, and Joseph Brickman explore the intricate dynamics between homeowners and contractors, particularly regarding expectations and communication.
- Listeners are advised to conduct thorough due diligence when hiring contractors to avoid potential legal issues and financial pitfalls.
- The discussion highlights the necessity of clear and detailed documentation, particularly in terms of change orders and contract amendments, to prevent disputes.
- Understanding the legal ramifications of contracting work is crucial, especially when it comes to liability and responsibility for damages or unfinished work.
- The episode emphasizes that both parties should maintain open lines of communication throughout the project to ensure expectations are met and misunderstandings are minimized.
Transcript
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Speaker B:The House Pro Insider.
Speaker B:This is the podcast for trades pros, carpenters, contractors, interior designers and innovators building homes, renovating spaces, or creating the next big thing.
Speaker B:Let's dive in with your host, Eric G. Welcome to the around the House Pro Insider.
Speaker B:This is for all you contractors out there real quick.
Speaker B:Remodelers, builders, whatever you want to call yourself, whether you're a designer or even an inventor, this show is for you to help elevate your business and make life just a little bit easier and of course, more profitable.
Speaker B:I'm Eric Gene.
Speaker B:We got Johnny Dudley here in the studio.
Speaker B:Johnny, great to see you, my friend.
Speaker C:How you doing, brother?
Speaker B:Good, man.
Speaker B:Well, you and I had a great conversation this last week and talking with our attorney friend, Joseph, that guy.
Speaker B:I love talking with contract construction attorneys.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because they've seen it all.
Speaker B:We've got our own stories.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But these guys are, are educated and you know, it aired in our regular radio show or actually it's airing, you know, this weekend.
Speaker B:So we're going to give you guys a pre look at this and here's the cool thing is we're going to do this whole show basically without the radio edit.
Speaker B:So you're gonna get what we would put up in the around the house, the premium version of this where you pay for it.
Speaker B:But we're gonna put this whole thing up there because we really dove into a lot of information for homeowners.
Speaker B:But I think what Johnny and I were just talking about here before I hit the record button is that we really dove into something from both sides of that coin.
Speaker B:And to hear it from a homeowner perspective and to hear it from your side as the remodeler builder perspective, I think there's a lot of value in that.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think we covered both sides of the coin real well on that episode.
Speaker C:It's, we made a lot of points that any contractors should be paying attention to and be aware of.
Speaker C:And especially if you're walking in as a secondary contractor, which we talked a lot about, just playing some real heads up ball so that either a, you don't get stuck with a crappy job, be a bad client and see, you know, somebody who's just sue happy that's already got a claim in against the previous contractor.
Speaker C:And you got to wonder why.
Speaker C:I'm not saying contractors are always right, but I'm not saying homeowners are either.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, I think we made some real, real valid points in there.
Speaker C:It was good.
Speaker B:You know, you and I have been, I want to just pivot for a second.
Speaker B:We didn't talk about this before, but I wanted to pivot.
Speaker B:I ran into something with AI that was very interesting this week.
Speaker B:And you know, AI is not a perfect science yet in that.
Speaker B:That the data sometimes, especially on the first ask, can be somewhat wrong.
Speaker B:And I had a fascinating one where I was talking with an author friend of mine.
Speaker B:She sent over her upcoming book that I legally can't talk about, but I'm doing the edit on it just to look through to make sure that the stuff that I contributed is accurate.
Speaker B:And I thought what was interesting is we were talking about some facts out there that are in the industry that are completely wrong.
Speaker B:It's like that old wives tale, right.
Speaker B:And then I asked AI the same thing and I was using grok and it gave me the same kind of canned answer back as what the.
Speaker B:Of what kind of the.
Speaker B:The wives tale is.
Speaker B:That's wrong, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I said, no, your information is inaccurate.
Speaker B:Do better.
Speaker B:Where did you find this from?
Speaker B:And it dove back into it, and after about two other prompts, it went, oh, yeah, that's not really accurate.
Speaker B:That is actually, you know, and it was.
Speaker B:It was taking what it found online.
Speaker B:Is everybody saying this?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:I ran into a similar argument, a little off topic, but I remember about a year and a half ago, and I had this airy argument about something profound in the world, how the world ends, or, you know, something ridiculous.
Speaker C:And it was giving me this history quote because, you know, I've.
Speaker C:History dictates and we've shown in the past.
Speaker C:And it's like, here's some examples.
Speaker C:And I'm like, no, how.
Speaker C:Yeah, super.
Speaker C:But same kind of deal like common thought is.
Speaker C:And it was, you know, way off the mark.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Without getting into the subject matter, it was, this is more.
Speaker B:This is six times more likely to happen.
Speaker B:And I went, no, it's not.
Speaker B:And then they came back at the very end.
Speaker A:Actuary.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so it actually went back.
Speaker B:And I'm like, no, that's inaccurate.
Speaker B:It came back and went, oh, you're right.
Speaker B:Because in the studies that show it was.
Speaker B:There was like.
Speaker B: It was like: Speaker B:That's not six times.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's 600 people.
Speaker B:That's not six times.
Speaker C:Feels good when you win sometimes on AI.
Speaker B:And I was like, like, no.
Speaker B:And back and forth.
Speaker B:Then I went, oh, you're right, we.
Speaker C:Still have a brain in here.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it was funny, was as they were sitting there going, well, and then the AI kind of Made an excuse for it.
Speaker B:I'm like, oh, come on.
Speaker B:You're sounding like an old employee.
Speaker C:They were the same trick with me.
Speaker B:Possibly could be the cause of or most likely to.
Speaker B:And I went, I asked you for facts.
Speaker B:So anyway, it was kind of funny.
Speaker B:That was kind of funny.
Speaker B:And then after we get done recording this, I'm going to post this up.
Speaker B:I wanted to talk about this real quick before we.
Speaker B:This was an interesting.
Speaker B:So my brother and I are trying to get gutters put down at our beach house down there, because when they did these horrible kind of covered porches off the front, that was the first thing we hauled out of there because they were just all falling down and they had ripped the gutters off the front of the house.
Speaker B:And like, this week they've had like 8 inches of rain down there.
Speaker B:We need gutters.
Speaker B:So, you know, it's monsoon season down there.
Speaker B:So we working around, getting quotes, everything else.
Speaker B:And this company sent us an email this morning.
Speaker B:This one went to my brother, and I'll just read it real quick.
Speaker B:Following up on our conversation about scheduling your gutter project.
Speaker B:He'd already approved it.
Speaker B:Said, let's go.
Speaker B:When can we go?
Speaker B:I want to provide an update on your availability.
Speaker B:Our current schedule is fully booked until mid January to early February.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, due to the small scope of this specific project, the 45ft on the front of the house, our schedule has determined we're currently unable to fit you into our schedule.
Speaker B:I sincerely apologize.
Speaker B:We won't be able to complete a job for you at this time.
Speaker B:And I'm like, we're hoping to get them out in the next two weeks.
Speaker B:And they just went, nah, too small.
Speaker B:I'm like, really?
Speaker C:You know, you brought up.
Speaker C:You brought up earlier, before the show, the other bids that you got.
Speaker C:Maybe they just sent the wrong guy out that gave him a bid from two decades ago.
Speaker B:No, we.
Speaker B:They said that their ads that I saw online said that they were 40 to 50% cheaper than the other people.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:They know what they're doing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they're booked up.
Speaker B:But I was like, really?
Speaker B:I mean, it wasn't like they came out and priced it and went.
Speaker B:We got all the way to the scheduler before.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:They kicked us to the curve.
Speaker B:I'm like, are you kidding me?
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker B:That's bad management, you know?
Speaker C:Well, and to speak to the contractors, man, I hope it's making sense for them because I've spent.
Speaker C:I spent in the past during my learning years, a lot of Time running like a bantry.
Speaker C:And at the end of the year, the end of the day, you're like, I made $6.
Speaker C:But you felt good because you were busy all the time and you had a bunch of.
Speaker C:You know, that kind of goes back to our consulting thing we've been talking about.
Speaker C:Like so many people are unaware of where they stand or what they're doing or where they're going.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And you could be out there burning your tires off like that and really not making any money.
Speaker C:Even though it looks cool when you know, 20, 30k comes in a month after you paid the 17 guys, you got out running around in four different trucks.
Speaker C:And the insurance on everything in that I could go on for a day.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker C:You got to take a real honest look.
Speaker C:Even though you love depositing all those checks, where's that money going if not on a, on a daily basis, a weekly basis, and go, how we do?
Speaker C:How are we doing?
Speaker C:Where do we recorrect?
Speaker C:Because plenty of us, man, we like to work, we don't like doing books, we don't like looking at numbers.
Speaker C:Let's pound nails.
Speaker C:And man, you can end up in a real bad spot and go, wow, for three years.
Speaker C:And how am I broke?
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Well, here's the thing.
Speaker B:I look at this from the business management side, okay?
Speaker B:They had an estimator drive out there, the half hour to go, look at the job.
Speaker B:They knew what the linear footage was.
Speaker B:It was already given.
Speaker B:They came back, wrote up an estimate, went back and forth because they tried to give too much of an estimate over what we did.
Speaker B:They had hours into this project and then for the schedule to go.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, if management had this under control, they would say, hey guys, we're only doing complete houses.
Speaker B:And, and we're booked up till January, February.
Speaker B:The first thing you need to do is when you talk to people, when they call you on the phone or send an estimate, go, hey, by the way, we're booked till January, February.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or we're two months out, or we're three months out and we're only doing full jobs.
Speaker B:Yeah, you want a price for that?
Speaker B:And that's why I look at it.
Speaker B:These guys spent hard earned money and time that they clearly didn't have.
Speaker C:And those are the little leakers in the boat that you end up drowning at the end of the year going, what we.
Speaker C:I put 30k a month into the account every month.
Speaker C:How do what we did?
Speaker C:Almost half a million dollars in revenue and we don't have any money.
Speaker C:It's because of things like that, you know, spinning your wheels.
Speaker C:I mean, this is staying organized, not knowing what your costs are on a daily basis, not having a pro forma, not running any of that by a controller or an accountant of any kind.
Speaker C:And you're just out there pounding nails, working your butt off, and you end up getting going.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker C:I made six bucks an hour all year.
Speaker C:Like, go get a job at dicks, man.
Speaker C:It's 15 or plus benefits or something.
Speaker B:20 benefits there, you know?
Speaker B:And you get to smell good burgers all day.
Speaker B:So that's the thing, you know?
Speaker B:You're right.
Speaker B:You're not wrong.
Speaker B:It's like these guys are bleeding and they don't know it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And providing poor customer service at the end.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Your brother gonna tell about that guy?
Speaker B:What am I.
Speaker B:His name not coming up guy?
Speaker B:Let's be honest.
Speaker B:I'm like, I'm not coming up again.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:All right, brother.
Speaker B:Well, cool.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Just to circle back, man.
Speaker C:Any contractors listening out there, take a listen through this whole episode with Joseph because it really was valuable, and we really clipped a lot of good points, man.
Speaker C:Client communications and city, county laws.
Speaker C:And the differences and the lack of.
Speaker C:And the too many of.
Speaker C:And just a whole bunch of ability.
Speaker B:To not fire a contractor and maybe fire a contractor.
Speaker B:It's a good one.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, we get carried off on our little whims, but stick through to the end of this thing.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker C:It's worth a.
Speaker C:It's worth the listen.
Speaker B:It's a good one.
Speaker B:It's a good one.
Speaker B:All right, brother, let's jump out to Joseph here and get this show started.
Speaker B:Thanks, man.
Speaker B:We got Joseph Brinkman, who's an associate attorney with Williams and Tucson, focusing his practice on land use, zoning, real estate litigation, and everything about your home, including.
Speaker B:Did you hire that contractor correctly, Joseph?
Speaker B:Welcome to around the House.
Speaker A:Thank you, guys.
Speaker A:I appreciate being here, and I'm excited to.
Speaker A:To get into this stuff, man.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:This is just something that John and I have been talking about a lot because there are so many things as a homeowner you're not prepared for.
Speaker B:And I think what's even making it worse these days are some of these websites, like Nextdoor and Craigslist, and all of these things where somebody comes out and goes, yeah, I'll do that for $400, and off you go.
Speaker B:And that big noise you hear Is the liability door opening.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:I mean, if it sounds cheap, it's like.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm the same way.
Speaker A:If I.
Speaker A:If I feel a deal out there, I'm gonna take it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's dangerous because as I've always said to people on this show for years, if you hire somebody to go up and clean your gutters and they fall up and get hu, they're your employee.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:Which means you're in charge of their medical expenses and everything else that goes along with that.
Speaker A:You want to cut off the liability chain as quick as you can and as efficiently as you can.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:So what are some of your tips, brother, for really trying to do that?
Speaker B:You don't get yourself in trouble.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I think when it comes to.
Speaker A:And I guess I'm kind of tailoring all of this to home renovation product projects, nothing commercial.
Speaker A:This is just.
Speaker B:Yeah, this is.
Speaker A:We're going to do hiring a contractor and kind of getting into what you want to be in that contract.
Speaker A:And I think off the bat, I mean, most of the time, if you've got this big project that you want to do, you've been planning for it for a while, it could be years, could be months, you've been saving for it and allocating some money towards that project for a long time.
Speaker A:You've been going through the plans for so much time and.
Speaker A:And generally speaking, have just been putting a lot of time into it.
Speaker A:So my, I guess first question would be when you're looking for a contractor is why would you cut a corner after doing all of that work and after making this your child and envisioning this for so long, why would you at the very last second just say, you know what, I found that guy on Craigslist.
Speaker A:Let's just roll with it and see what happens.
Speaker B:There we go.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's so crazy and it's so interesting here.
Speaker B:I live in a state here in Oregon where we have a really good construction contractors board that is, you know, to some contractors that absolutely hate this, but they are actively going after unlicensed, unbonded, uninsured contractors.
Speaker B:They do stings.
Speaker B:They will go around and drive around neighborhoods.
Speaker B:They've got enforcement officers and as a homeowner, you can literally just get on the phone, give them a call and say, hey, I'm looking at hiring.
Speaker B:And I'll make a name up ABC Contractors.
Speaker B:I'll say, hey, how are these guys to work with?
Speaker B:What do you see?
Speaker B:And they'll go, wow, they're current with everything.
Speaker B:They've been sued twice, but they've been in business for 55 years.
Speaker B:So that's not that far outside of the box.
Speaker B:And Any complaints they had were resolved quickly.
Speaker B:And it seems.
Speaker B:Seems like on the up and up.
Speaker B:And now you've got somebody that's at least helping you.
Speaker B:Now, I know across the US it can be the Wild West.
Speaker B:Some places don't even have contractor licensing.
Speaker B:And it's depending on where you're at, it can be a whole new ballgame.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I mean, I think the biggest thing that I would say in response to that is just use your resources, and if you've got the resources, utilize them.
Speaker A:I'm not sure if we have something quite as impressive in Georgia as you guys have out in Oregon, but I think all of this kind of what we're talking about applies wherever you are, which is do your due diligence, rely on the information that you've got and ask around.
Speaker A:I mean, it does not hurt to ask someone, you know who you know has done a project.
Speaker A:When you did that research before you found your contractor, what did you find?
Speaker A:Did this name come up?
Speaker A:Was it flagged for any reason?
Speaker A:And I think not only doing the research, but.
Speaker A:And this is kind of getting into the next part of this, of the process, but sit down with the contractor and have a conversation.
Speaker A:Because when I get involved, it's usually once the relationship's already kind of past repair, and the first thing always that I'll ask to see not even the contract of.
Speaker A:Let me see those conversations.
Speaker A:Let me see communications that you had or explain those communications you had before you even put pen to paper.
Speaker A:What was.
Speaker A:What was the vibe?
Speaker A:Because there has to be a vibe check.
Speaker A:Like with any other relationship in life, you want to know who you're signing up to work with.
Speaker A:And John, I know you're a contractor, we're a contractor.
Speaker A:And you can appreciate that if it goes both ways, too.
Speaker A:This is not just from the homeowner's perspective.
Speaker A:The contractor, too.
Speaker A:If you show up and you've got a homeowner who's, you know, going to be on your ass no matter what, maybe you don't necessarily want that job.
Speaker C:No, and that's a.
Speaker C:That's a real hard truth.
Speaker C:And we've brought that, that topic point up several times over the last couple of months.
Speaker C:Like, because for me, that was always a big thing.
Speaker C:And it's something I always emphasize when we're speaking to the homeowner.
Speaker C:Like, man, get that vibe.
Speaker C:You know, he might not be the cheapest, he might not be the most expensive, he might not have the prettiest truck.
Speaker C:But like I always tell Eric, you know, I used to walk in and sell $300,000 remodels with long musician hair and tattoos and earrings, ripped jeans.
Speaker C:And the people would buy from me versus my sales guy, who'd go in with a tie and a sport jacket, all dolled up and looking pretty.
Speaker A:They want that vibe.
Speaker A:They want that.
Speaker C:They're like, yeah, they know authenticity.
Speaker C:They know when you're absol speaking the truth, and they know that you're being genuinely who you are, and it makes a huge difference.
Speaker C:And same goes for the homeowner when they're like, hey, if you do a great job on my bathroom, let's take a look at the kitchen afterwards.
Speaker C:I'm like, you're the snake oil peddler now, brother.
Speaker A:Yes, it's.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's.
Speaker C:And, you know, especially in these long remodels, it's.
Speaker C:It's somebody you're gonna have to get along with for a couple of months.
Speaker A:And if not longer.
Speaker C:I have also talked about the relationship between husband and wife during these big remodels, and it gets sticky, man.
Speaker C:No matter how cool of a person you are, there's gonna be points so that friction comes.
Speaker C:So I love that advice.
Speaker C:Thank you, Joe.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I had to almost call the police to break up a fight between a husband and wife on a new home build because he had changed the laundry room cabinets, and she wasn't aware, and she goes off and gives him a right hook that landed.
Speaker B:And I'm like, whoa, whoa.
Speaker B:And I was like, hey, guys, this meeting's done.
Speaker B:They're like, oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker B:I'm sorry.
Speaker B:I'm like.
Speaker B:They're like, no, let's continue.
Speaker B:I'm like, this meeting's done.
Speaker B:Because the next thing I have to do is call the police.
Speaker A:This is a different type of podcast now.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker C:And a different attorney.
Speaker C:We need to contact a different attorney.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's not me.
Speaker B:Now we're into the Johnny Depp stuff, and that's a whole other thing.
Speaker B:Here we go.
Speaker A:We're checking every box right now.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker C:Well, what?
Speaker B:It's crazy, though, because, you know, and I always said this as I taught kitchen and bath designers, because, you know, I've got 35 plus years of kitchen and bath design behind me, and I'd say, hey, if you're not letting go a couple clients a year, you're probably not being picky enough, because in that front end of the project, if it is not nice, calm, chill, if it's already rough, it just gets worse from There.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And again, just kind of like when you're approaching this again, you've spent so.
Speaker A:And this is what always throws me off.
Speaker A:You've spent so much time planning for this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Why.
Speaker A:Why are you allowing yourself to even feel the pressure of having to hire this person?
Speaker A:And from the contractor's perspective, too, you've got other jobs.
Speaker A:Why are you feeling the pressure to have to take this?
Speaker A:And I know sometimes it just seems in the moment to be it, and you're like, wow, I can see where this is going.
Speaker A:Maybe it's not perfect right now, but it could get there.
Speaker A:And that's with any relationship in life.
Speaker A:But especially when you're about to invest so much money and become best friends with this contractor.
Speaker A:Don't let the pressure hit you that early.
Speaker A:At least let the pressure hit you way later on when you have to make a quick decision.
Speaker A:And I know we'll get to that.
Speaker A:But a quick decision, maybe at the very end to finish everything off, but before you even put pen to paper.
Speaker A:It just doesn't make sense.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And when you later in that process where they've been coming in and out of your house for 45, 50 hours a week, and they're coming over to play catch up on Saturday morning, and all you want to do is just be sitting there in your pajamas, drinking coffee, and maybe watching the morning news of the morning home improvement show on hgtv, and you got people walking through your living room.
Speaker B:You're sick and tired of everyone at that point, almost no matter how good that relationship goes, you got to start out great.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then all of a sudden, it's an Irish coffee, and things are.
Speaker A:Things are getting out of hand, and.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker C:And here comes the right hook.
Speaker A:And here comes the right hook.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:It's all linear right now.
Speaker B:Well, you know, Joseph, I think the big thing here, too is, is as we go through this process, the contract is such an important thing.
Speaker B:And it's so crazy because I'm also.
Speaker B:You and I were talking beforehand about some of the.
Speaker B:Some of the groups that I'm a.
Speaker B:Either a moderator or an expert in on social media.
Speaker B:And one of them is called Ask a Cabinet Maker.
Speaker B:And people are doing these kitchen remodels, and there is no contract.
Speaker B:It's literally on the back of yesterday's pizza box.
Speaker B:There's no samples, there's no drawings.
Speaker B:It's a big round number.
Speaker B:And then they're wondering why they're not getting what they expected because no one bothered to communicate it correctly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think it's important to make clear, and I know John can attest to this.
Speaker A:There's the practical side of everything, and then there's reality.
Speaker A:In an ideal world, you've got the perfect contract.
Speaker A:You've thought through this, you've listened to this podcast, you've heard the horror stories.
Speaker A:You know what is to come and why it's important to have that contract 95% of the time.
Speaker A:We're not going to have that, and you're going to have a piece of paper or a handshake, and it's just going to be, I'm hiring you to do this because I trust you, and I've heard from multiple people that you know what you're doing.
Speaker A:And yeah, maybe this is a $400,000 project, but we just got to make it work.
Speaker A:And that's practically what's going on.
Speaker A:But you've got to.
Speaker A:You've got to take a step back.
Speaker A:And again, it's just the timing of everything.
Speaker A:You've put so much time to begin with.
Speaker A:Let's just take a little bit of extra time to figure out the details, because the contract itself can make everything go smoothly, including the breakup.
Speaker A:If it does get to that, it's.
Speaker B:So important because that's always the first thing I ask when things are going sideways on that.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:And this is something I literally comment once or twice a day in this group.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:And the first thing is, what is your contract say?
Speaker B:And they're like, well, it doesn't look what I expected.
Speaker B:Okay, what is the sample that you signed and approved?
Speaker B:Where's the door sample you signed and approved?
Speaker B:And that was a rule when I owned my own kitchen bath company, was that I don't care if they want to write a check today.
Speaker B:We don't have a contract until there is a signed sample that we have in our hands.
Speaker B:We'll order them two samples, they get to have one.
Speaker B:We have the control sample they're going to approve, and we're going to keep that in the file with the contract.
Speaker B:And so we have all the hard pieces, so there's no misunderstandings.
Speaker B:And you have to almost go to that level, especially with some of the products that you see out there.
Speaker B:And I've got horror stories with that where products are not clear and it look.
Speaker B:And it's perfectly written out in the contract, but there's still a misunderstanding around it.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:And you can't have a situation where you're like, oh, well, the contractor was supposed to get me exhibit A to the contract.
Speaker A:Right after we signed.
Speaker A:I actually don't have that.
Speaker A:They never gave it to me.
Speaker A:I'm like, well then why the hell did you sign it that said that you did have it, you don't even know what it said.
Speaker A:And now you're just operating based off of what someone else is saying that you may or may not have agreed to.
Speaker A:So I agree.
Speaker A:It's almost like it's kind of like a prenup.
Speaker A:I mean it really, it's, it's the con, it's the construction prenup of.
Speaker A:And that's why I think it's important.
Speaker A:It's not just to cover your own, but it's to cover both parties butts.
Speaker A:And it should very clearly explain what happens if something goes south.
Speaker A:It's not just about here's how we're going to do change orders, which I've got a lot to say on that.
Speaker A:But it needs to say if you guys are going to go like this at a certain point, post right hook, then here's what's going to happen.
Speaker A:And here's, here's what you can recover as the contractor, here's what you can't touch and here's what you can claim as a homeowner.
Speaker A:Here's what you can't fight.
Speaker A:And it needs to spell that out.
Speaker A:And I don't, I don't think people really realize how important that part of the contract is.
Speaker A:It's not just the typical provisions, but it's the breakup provisions.
Speaker B:Speaking of the breakup, we covered this probably now three or four years ago.
Speaker B:I don't know if you saw this out in, in Colorado, but it was the sledgehammer contractor that made all the stuff.
Speaker B:So he was doing a remodel for a bathroom and he wanted to get paid early.
Speaker B:Outside the contract, she said no because she had some concerns about the quality.
Speaker B:And he went over even though he was told not to enter the premises and was known as the sledgehammer contractor because as the neighbor filmed it, he went into the bathroom with a sledgehammer and demoed it as a quote, repossession.
Speaker B:And we were very involved in this because I saw it come out and we had some friends of the show and another Facebook group called Global Tile Posse went out there and they gave her a brand new bathroom for free.
Speaker B:And it looked, I mean it looked like a blind 8 year old did the tile work.
Speaker B:It was the worst tile work I'd ever seen.
Speaker B:And this guy, when it was all said and done after two years, he did a little time for that felony, and rightfully so.
Speaker B:But it just shows you, even if you have a contract, if people don't want to follow it, it's something you can hold people accountable with, but it's not going to fix the overall problem of hiring the wrong person.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And unfortunately, we've dealt with a lot of cases where there's not clear enough instruction.
Speaker A:It's not clearly spelled out what part of the job is going to entail.
Speaker A:What demo plans specifically.
Speaker A:Specifically, demo plans of.
Speaker A:Why didn't you look at these plans before you sign the contract?
Speaker A:You have to make sure you know, because once you demo something, it's gone.
Speaker A:Once something's gone, it's gone.
Speaker A:So you've got to be on the same page.
Speaker A:And again, demo happens first.
Speaker A:So I'm like, again, what are we.
Speaker A:Why are we at a disconnect this early on?
Speaker A:If there's going to be a demo, you better know what the demo is going to be.
Speaker A:And it can't be a situation where maybe I did authorize it, maybe I didn't, because that's kind of the most important part.
Speaker A:And I mean, your loan might be affected by that.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's the hugest piece is the money.
Speaker A:And where are you getting this money?
Speaker A:And even if.
Speaker A:Even if you're kind of.
Speaker A:You're fronting the cash yourself, I mean, you're not taking out a loan for the project.
Speaker A:I mean, that's a huge expense if.
Speaker A:If you demo the wrong part of the property.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's like the.
Speaker B:It's like the surgeon doing the wrong surgery.
Speaker B:You know, it's exactly hard to go back and fix that.
Speaker B:It's just what it is.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I wanted to ask you, Joseph, what is the.
Speaker B:What is your take?
Speaker B:This is probably one of the most controversial parts of construction.
Speaker B:What is your take on down payments?
Speaker A:Just, like, give me as much detail as you can't.
Speaker A:I cannot stand looking at these contracts where it just says 25,000 due off the bat.
Speaker A:Well, what does that entail?
Speaker A:What's that going to cover?
Speaker A:Because I know in theory, $25,000 is going to go towards materials, it's going to go towards my subs, it's going to go towards plans and permitting.
Speaker A:There's a lot of things that I can assume it's going to go towards, but you've got to spell that out.
Speaker A:It can't just be, give me a chunk of cash and we'll make progress.
Speaker A:Well, what does that mean?
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:I think that's my initial Take is I just, I don't like it.
Speaker A:It has to be more detailed.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's so bad because I get it.
Speaker B:If you're doing a kitchen remodel and let's say it's a hundred thousand dollar kitchen model, you could easily have 25 or 30 thousand dollars of the cabinets in that.
Speaker B:And I get that you probably are going to go prepay it.
Speaker B:You know, contractors don't have the house accounts that they had 30 years ago where you just went down to the lumber yard.
Speaker B:It was a handshake and off you went again.
Speaker B:It's a different world.
Speaker B:But at the same point, if they're turning around and just paying off the bill for the last project and don't have the money to, to pay for your cabinets and they're hoping for the next one to pay off yours, that's where that death spiral of a contractor happens.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And that's, I mean that's the biggest unknown when you do just hand over a chunk of change.
Speaker A:Is, is this covering another job that you're already in a lawsuit over and that's why you needed this cash, or is this going towards my cabinets like you claimed it was?
Speaker A:And you don't know until it's written out and it's described and every in the contract, every stage has to be detailed.
Speaker A:And again, it just, it drives me crazy when I get involved months after there's been an issue and I'm like, well, obviously you guys are fighting because nobody knows any.
Speaker A:Nobody's on the same page of what is and isn't supposed to be happening right now.
Speaker A:Like you, you're all disagreeing for a reason.
Speaker A:I'm as confused as all of you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That those benchmarks are so key and I don't know, John, you were really good at that, you know, spelling that stuff out in your contracts back then.
Speaker B:And only because we kind of had to be.
Speaker B:But it was one of those things that, you know, homeowners love to slow pay if they can get away with it.
Speaker B:So you kind of have to have those things in there from the contractor, you know, to say, okay, cabinets are going to be installed.
Speaker B:We'll have countertop templates here, for instance, and that is going to be the benchmark for the next payment, a round of payment.
Speaker B:So you can go check.
Speaker B:Okay, now it's time.
Speaker B:And that gets to be even at that.
Speaker B:That can be a gray area, but it's better than just two months in.
Speaker B:You're paying me this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Those are lessons hard learned, I can tell you that.
Speaker C:For sure.
Speaker C:And my contracts only got better because of those hard learned lessons.
Speaker C:And that's what all this is, that's covering your cabinets.
Speaker C:Repurchase on my amex for the month and a half until you pay me again or whatever the case may be.
Speaker C:Those are.
Speaker C:And as contracts, I mean, we're inherently lazy when it comes to contracts.
Speaker C:I don't even want to look at an Excel spreadsheet.
Speaker C:Like, I pound nails and I build cool things and I make people dance in their kitchens and they're happy about it.
Speaker C:Spelling out on October 7th, you're going to give me this and it's going to go to a bag of screws and a hammer.
Speaker C:And I know stuff made me crazy.
Speaker A:Crazy.
Speaker C:It's absolutely fair.
Speaker C:Contractors don't want to do all that stuff.
Speaker C:You're an attorney.
Speaker C:You live in that world.
Speaker C:I get it.
Speaker C:My accountant, she will attest, God rest her soul.
Speaker C:I used to walk in with literally a giant cardboard box of all my receipts and stuff and invoice, whatever.
Speaker C:I'd put it on her desk, she'd get me a beer out of the fridge, she'd start talking, my eyes would glaze over and she'd say, get out of here.
Speaker C:That's me.
Speaker C:That's me and paperwork, man.
Speaker A:But no one wants to do it.
Speaker A:And that's the thing.
Speaker A:And I, I of course, live and breathe it.
Speaker A:But neither the homeowner nor the contractor want to do that.
Speaker A:And that's why it always ends so poorly.
Speaker A:Because when you do disagree, well, what's the first thing we're going to look to is the paperwork.
Speaker A:And when it's incredibly unclear, then both sides just take a hard position of, you told me you wanted me to do this, and the homeowner says, no, I didn't.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:I never know who to believe.
Speaker A:And it's just, It's a game of characters and it's so, it's.
Speaker A:It can be really fun to be the kind of the mediator.
Speaker A:But at the same time, I'm like, you guys are just lying through your teeth, both of you.
Speaker B:Both of you are right.
Speaker A:No one's right here.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So what is your take on the breakup rules?
Speaker B:Because I think this is so important because you get, I'm not going to disparage the name Karen out there, but you get the homeowner that gets upset and they're like, you're off the job.
Speaker B:You, this is.
Speaker B:There's a scratch in my door.
Speaker B:And we're, you know, they're 90% done.
Speaker B:And I don't want them coming back here anymore.
Speaker B:And sometimes you have rules on a state or a local basis that says, hey, they have a.
Speaker B:They have a right to go out and repair it first and give it a try.
Speaker B:I know it gets really sketchy across the country depending on where you live, but what's your take on that?
Speaker A:I guess.
Speaker A:Right, right to repair aside, because Georgia's got the Right to Repair act and it's very, very strict.
Speaker A:And there's so many procedural, just strict liability.
Speaker A:Have to hit this before we get to the next step.
Speaker A:That aside, I think just generally speaking, you've got to have something clearly written out that says if the relationship terminates, doesn't matter whose fault it is, the contractor is entitled to everything that they've done at least up to that date.
Speaker A:If the contractor has already purchased the materials with their own money, if they have already done work, if they've already done anything that costs money, they have to be entitled to that to the extent the work was actually done.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's the little caveat.
Speaker A:Assuming it was all done right, you can't fight that.
Speaker A:But what I always have a problem with is there's a lot of situations where the contractor knows that they have leverage at this point as far as permitting.
Speaker A:They know that they can go and pull, that they can cancel that permit whenever they want.
Speaker A:And all of a sudden there's a homeowner, whether or not we call her Karen, him or her, any.
Speaker A:Whatever we want to refer to Jim, Jim is ready to move on to another contractor.
Speaker A:Jim should be able to do that assuming Jim pays what's actually been done so far.
Speaker A:So my, my take on it and in the breakup provisions is that you've got to spell that out.
Speaker A:And you have to have not only the provision that says contractor gets what they've done to date, but you also need to have something that says they're not entitled to anything after that because they didn't do it.
Speaker A:And yes, maybe they expected going into this that I'm going to make 100 grand on this project.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:And that's the reality.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But on top of that, there needs to be something in there.
Speaker A:I think, and this is kind of what I. I harp on a lot, is the permit, the changing of the guard for the permit.
Speaker A:And it's got to be.
Speaker A:It's got to be a very clean transition of power as it comes to the permit, because you can't have a situation where Jim wants to move on and get a new contractor involved, but he can't because the contractor's like, this is my job.
Speaker A:This is my permit.
Speaker A:I'm just like, God damn.
Speaker C:Especially if the back of his house is wide open because he demoed the.
Speaker A:Back wall when you weren't supposed to.
Speaker C:Jim's like, hey, dude, shower curtain cover in my house ain't gonna work.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Well, and then the worst part is, is that homeowner is always going to pay more when another contractor comes in.
Speaker B:Cause they're coming in with all the red flags going, okay, you just hired somebody and it looks like they did maybe half decent job on this.
Speaker B:It's not a.
Speaker B:It's not a procedural hot mess as far as, okay, things look like they.
Speaker B:They're good to this point.
Speaker B:They're always going to look at it and go, oh man, I'm going to charge 20, 30, whatever percent more going, this is going to be a hot mess on the best day.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it never saves you money.
Speaker B:And I always try to go, okay, is there a way to go back and repair this, people, before you start throwing hand grenades at contractors, trucks out front?
Speaker C:And it's tough because.
Speaker C:And I was going to say this earlier, like, first of all, anything that involves this amount of money or that amount of money is going to be emotionally charged.
Speaker C:And secondly, you know, your house is such a private item that first of all, you get very excited about the project.
Speaker C:Second of all, your expectations are never realistic.
Speaker C:Third of all, you're completely impatient.
Speaker C:And so now everything's at a 10.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So a hangnail can lead to a right hook when we get involved in these situations.
Speaker C:Yeah, to the right.
Speaker C:I'm always.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker C:But it's a.
Speaker C:It's about bringing it back to personalities and, and having people that are level enough.
Speaker C:And as a contractor, I had to learn.
Speaker C:I was part psychologist half the time.
Speaker C:Like, I had to be a therapist.
Speaker C:It's like being a haircutter.
Speaker C:You're like, this is the worst thing I've ever done to somebody's hair.
Speaker C:So how's the kids?
Speaker C:I mean, like, you legit have to be a therapist at some point to keep that temperature down because everything is emotionally charged.
Speaker C:It was my favorite color purple.
Speaker C:And that's not the purple I wanted.
Speaker C:Like, how do you bring that down to let's have a seven conversation?
Speaker A:Like, yeah, and it takes.
Speaker A:It takes a certain type of person to be that contractor.
Speaker A:And I respect.
Speaker A:There's not.
Speaker A:There's not.
Speaker A:And I have tremendous respect for someone who is able.
Speaker A:Able to bring it down to a seven and bring what essentially is their client and the homeowner down to a seven and say, let's just talk this through.
Speaker A:Here's why it's problematic that you want a different shade of purple at this stage and you need to get the homeowner on the same page with you.
Speaker A:Okay, you know what?
Speaker A:I don't like the purple, but I see where you're coming from.
Speaker A:And you got to take a step back and pause.
Speaker A:And again, this is just the timing of everything.
Speaker A:And I think, John, you've alluded to it, that sometimes you just got to, you have to make these split second decisions.
Speaker A:If, if there's a hole in the wall and it's raining, you can't say, okay, let's, let's take a step back, maybe amend this contract, talk through it for a couple of weeks.
Speaker A:It's just not, that's not practical.
Speaker A:But you've got to, you've got to figure out something from the start of when crisis does strike because it's not going to, it's not going to go smoothly and never go smoothly.
Speaker A:You're not going to spend $100,000 on the dot for a $100,000 project.
Speaker A:You're not.
Speaker A:So you have to know off the bat what's going to happen when we disagree.
Speaker A:And you've got a, it's a vibe check, it just is.
Speaker B:So this brings up a great subject as well.
Speaker B:When you're making those changes, that contractor better have that pre printed change order pad right there that they can write that out and have a signature on it.
Speaker B:So we can get that documented since we're going outside of said contract at this point.
Speaker A:Dude, consistency is key.
Speaker A:It really is.
Speaker A:And I know it's so easy, especially today, just to send a text message.
Speaker A:It's so easy to do that.
Speaker A:But if you've got a template change order, just give the homeowner a pad of those.
Speaker A:Give them a stack of 100 of them.
Speaker A:Give Jim 100 pieces of paper.
Speaker A:All that look the exact same.
Speaker A:All you have to do is write in what it is that you're changing in both parties sign.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:That's literally it.
Speaker A:And I understand that sometimes the homeowner is not there, sometimes they're out of town and contractors still going to work.
Speaker A:It's a new build.
Speaker A:They don't need to be there anyway, they don't live there.
Speaker A:But you've got to, you've got to be consistent off the bat.
Speaker A:Because what you can't have and what we're constantly seeing on our end is well, we did the change order with that template off the bat, but then we kind of went to email and then we did some texts and then we went back to the change order template.
Speaker A:And then, then you're fighting of.
Speaker A:Well, I didn't agree to that.
Speaker A:Well, yes, you did.
Speaker A:You told me you wanted that.
Speaker A:Telling isn't the same as writing.
Speaker A:And I. I can see both sides to it and I appreciate how frustrating it is.
Speaker A:Both from the contractor side who's like, dude, you told me to knock down that fence so that I could finish this work.
Speaker A:And then the homeowner's like, no, I didn't.
Speaker A:And just like, what do you do there?
Speaker A:You gotta be consistent.
Speaker C:More lessons hard learned.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker A:And you don't know.
Speaker C:I was always, believe it or not, I was always too trusting and too kind for my own good.
Speaker C:Like, oh, yeah, sure, no problem, you know, and so I get the end of the job and I would forget half of the change orders I did.
Speaker C:I cost myself so much money being nice, but if my customer was happy, I genuinely.
Speaker C:I slept good at night and I didn't care.
Speaker C:Like, I've always been that way.
Speaker C:But, yeah, you know, until I got burned a few too many times.
Speaker C:Change order.
Speaker C:Yeah, we'll remember that.
Speaker C:We'll put it in the invoice, you.
Speaker A:Know, which kind of.
Speaker A:With that invoice, the last one, this, like, substantially getting back to that whole down payment.
Speaker A:You already know what I'm getting at, John.
Speaker C:It's at the very end, I'm like, oh, man, I gotta add all the.
Speaker C:Oh, no, they're gonna freak out.
Speaker A:Substantial complet.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Why, why does every.
Speaker A:Every single freaking contract says that?
Speaker A:I don't know why.
Speaker A:It doesn't.
Speaker A:It doesn't make sense.
Speaker B:I actually wanted to get.
Speaker B:I wanted to do this.
Speaker B:I wanted to come up with a really cool shade of gray and get like Sherwood and Williams or Benjamin Moore or Bear and call it substantial completion and have it just be a nice medium shade of gray.
Speaker A:This is like a deep cut.
Speaker A:Nerding out at this point.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:This is a deep cut that anyone who doesn't know what any of this is would be listening and they'd be like, what are they laughing, talking and laughing about?
Speaker B:But everybody that's been through a remodel and is a contractor out there just fell off their chair.
Speaker B:So, you know, it's what it is.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:That pains me.
Speaker B:It does.
Speaker B:Well, there's one Joseph, I wanted to talk to you about because it's an interesting one you and I talked about it a little bit before we jumped on, but I was on the Ask the Appraiser Facebook group, which is massive group of appraisers and real estate professionals.
Speaker B:And I love kind of walking in the middle of their conversation sometimes and kind of putting in the proverbial hand grenade in the middle of it when no one's thinking about to me what is my obvious thing.
Speaker B: maybe that was probably about: Speaker B:Homeowner bought a house.
Speaker B: Old: Speaker B:Basement was finished.
Speaker B:They hired us to do the bathroom remodel.
Speaker B:And it was a contractor and I was the designer.
Speaker B:She didn't hire me, but I was working under the.
Speaker B:Under the contractor pulled the building permit.
Speaker B:They gave the building permit contractor just demo.
Speaker B:First inspection was the rough in plumbing and stuff.
Speaker B:And the building inspector walks up and goes, we've got a problem, guys.
Speaker B:And we're like, what?
Speaker B:I was there for this.
Speaker B:He goes, my building plans and permits for this property show this is an unfinished attic.
Speaker B: r addition and bring it up to: Speaker B:And that was 100.
Speaker B:What it was $118,000 change order to get because it was red tag.
Speaker B:So it was already demoed.
Speaker B:You couldn't live in it.
Speaker B:And then they started going after the previous people selling the property because they'd been there for 30 or 40 years.
Speaker B:Well, that had been remodeled since then, clearly.
Speaker B:And there is a whole new liability that I'm seeing out there with house sales for homes that have had additions or unpermitted work like that, where you could have a thousand square foot house as far as what the building permit says.
Speaker B:But the real estate listing says 2,700 square feet because of the finished upstairs and the finished basement.
Speaker B:That's counted.
Speaker B:And there's a whole lot of liability sitting around there.
Speaker B:And there's really nobody out there that I'm seeing that has a clear responsibility in real estate that is assumed out there.
Speaker B:It's just this gray black hole.
Speaker B:And I'm seeing some lawsuits like in Arizona and things like that when I jump in and dive in where listing agents and appraisers have been, you know, held liable for these things, including the homeowner that was listing it.
Speaker B:But it's one big gray area that's, I think, hugely open for litigation.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, you kind of.
Speaker A:You kind of go down the hierarchy as far as who you go after in Georgia, I mean, you take title as is where is.
Speaker A:And it just, it is what it is.
Speaker A:And whatever you, after due diligence, if you buy it, it's yours.
Speaker A:So you should have looked into that.
Speaker A:Now at the same time, and for instance, with this attic, if that was here, I mean, you as the seller, you need to disclose if you've made some additions and not only if you've made additions or remodels or renovations, if it should have required a permit and it's worded a certain way where it's not only did you get a permit, but did you do any work that could, should have gotten a permit.
Speaker A:So it's easy to pin it on someone as in the previous owner if they fail to disclose that.
Speaker A:Now if you litigate the heck out of that and it proves to be unfruitful, then maybe you go after the appraiser and you say you had a duty to do this properly and not only just to walk in and say here's what it is, but you should have, you should have dug a little deeper into, into the records and looked up permitting.
Speaker A:And Eric, as we were talking about earlier, before kind of we started, not every municipality has perfect public access to all those records.
Speaker A:And then what you'll see a lot of the times from appraisers on their reports is they will have an appraiser.
Speaker A:Their appraisal will be like two or three pages and then five pages of here's what we're not doing and here's what you can't, here's what you can't come after me for is yep, here's what the, here's what it's worth.
Speaker A:And then here's everything that I didn't do today.
Speaker A:And I'm like, well then what did I pay you for?
Speaker C:I mean, if everybody has gotten good at at least one thing, it's shirking responsibility.
Speaker C:Yes, they're within there with them.
Speaker C:And especially in the States, it's so litigious there, people know somebody's going to come after them for something even if it's not on them.
Speaker C:It's unfortunate, but you know, the people I think about, and I've stupidly bought several homes and not looked into those things, you know, again, emotionally charged, I don't care, I'll fix it later.
Speaker C:I just love this place.
Speaker C:I gotta have it.
Speaker C:But you think about a 20 year old couple or 24 year old couple with a baby and they don't know what the hell they're doing, somebody tell them these things.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Whether it's the appraiser or an honest real estate agent that says, hey, this looks like this might be an addition.
Speaker C:We should check with the, you know, check the record, see if nobody's out there doing that.
Speaker C:Because the real estate agents mostly charged.
Speaker C:They're looking to make a buck.
Speaker C:They want to get the sale, they got a birthday for their baby.
Speaker C:It's just, it's an accountability.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's.
Speaker C:Where do you look now?
Speaker C:And everybody's so well protected with the five pages you're talking about, Joseph.
Speaker C:Just disappointing.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker B:Well, Johnny too is.
Speaker B:Think about it from a bank perspective, right?
Speaker B: u just lended money out for a: Speaker C:Foot and only a thousand of it's legal.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, okay, there's $750,000 of value I lent out that quite frankly doesn't exist.
Speaker C:Well, you'll never get my pity for the banks.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker B:No, I know.
Speaker B:Hypothetically though, but you see where I'm going with that, Joseph.
Speaker B:That gets to be pretty ugly pretty quick on paper.
Speaker A:And then you get into kind of the cost breakdown of well, what does it cost to fight this and what are we, how much money are we really fighting about?
Speaker A:And that's always such a difficult conversation on our end is trying to convince someone that $30,000 quote isn't worth it.
Speaker C:Isn't worth it.
Speaker A:Yeah, they and I would agree, you look at, I get, I hear it either on the phone or face to face.
Speaker A:Someone's looking at me like, are you really telling me right now, you, who has no skin in the game, Joseph, that $30,000 isn't worth it?
Speaker C:And I'll just go, yes, that's, I'm that guy, dude.
Speaker C:I'm like, that was a hundred thousand dollar mistake and I'm not going to chase it down through three years of nonsensical attorney CR paperwork and phone calls.
Speaker C:And what's it going to cost me in time and my life experience like.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:It's emotional.
Speaker A:I don't speak about the baggage.
Speaker A:The emotional baggage from the project.
Speaker A:Well now you've got another piece to it.
Speaker A:Now you've got a lawsuit and then you're paying me instead of spending that money to finish and fix the issue.
Speaker A:And that's why a lot of the times my, my kind of theory is let's, let's finish the project, then maybe reevaluate whether we want to sue and reevaluate if that really makes sense.
Speaker A:Because most, if not all of the time after you spend $30,000 to fix everything and you're done and you're moved in and you're happy, why would you then spend another 30 to maybe part of 30?
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:So my thought is always, let's just get to the finish line.
Speaker A:And then you're gonna think differently.
Speaker A:You just are.
Speaker B:Well, great example.
Speaker B:I've been through a couple divorces and I've had some friends that are going through something now.
Speaker B:And I go, hey, man, I know you want your $1,200 television back, but your attorney is $350 an hour.
Speaker B:Are you gonna spend $6,000 fighting for a $1,200 TV?
Speaker B:Why don't you go buy a really cool 8K one after this is all said and done and enjoy it instead of getting one that maybe has a hole in it by the time you get it?
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker C:I took my tools and my guitars and I said, keep the rest.
Speaker C:I don't care.
Speaker C:You gotta fight from this dog.
Speaker A:You gotta let go.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, Joseph, we're running out of time.
Speaker B:We're going through this hour quick.
Speaker B:I wanted to just kind of wrap this up in a.
Speaker B:In a nice little bow and just some quick tips for people out there that are getting ready to hire that contractor and maybe going down that.
Speaker B:That road.
Speaker B:Just kind of a little rapid fire.
Speaker B:What's your quick suggestions on it?
Speaker B:Because I know we could do another hour just on that again.
Speaker A:Yeah, what we've talked about, it's a vibe check first and foremost, I think, and I don't mean to sound too critical of any contractor.
Speaker A:And John, this is not aimed at you or anybody, but you don't.
Speaker A:As the homeowner, you don't owe the contractor anything.
Speaker A:This is your project.
Speaker A:You have saved for it.
Speaker A:You have planned it out for years, for months, whatever it is.
Speaker A:This is the vessel that you need to finish the project to make it into reality.
Speaker A:Before that, before you started looking for this contractor, you wouldn't owe anyone anything.
Speaker A:This is your thing.
Speaker A:So I think that's an important mindset to have.
Speaker A:Now, don't be arrogant.
Speaker A:Don't walk into a meeting with a contractor and, and kind of just slam your fist on the table and be like, you're going to do this for 50,000 less than you're probably entitled.
Speaker C:Serve me.
Speaker A:You serve me.
Speaker A:No, not.
Speaker C:That being said, the contractor is a service provider, which really Makes them a tool that you're paying for.
Speaker C:Don't forget you're making a great point.
Speaker C:I would wholeheartedly agree as a.
Speaker A:So I think from the homeowner's perspective, you have to approach it with that mindset of, I do need a contractor, but I don't necessarily owe this contractor at this moment anything.
Speaker A:So I think it's the vibe check, it's that it's do your due diligence.
Speaker A:And then I think really the biggest kind of pill to swallow off the bat is you have to know that this is going to cost more than you think it's going to cost, and it's going to take more time than you think it's going to take.
Speaker A:And whether that's an extra week, and I'm not trying to say that it's automatically going to be an extra six months, but it could be an extra week.
Speaker A:It could be an extra five grand.
Speaker A:Obviously, the other end of that spectrum is another two years and 100 grand.
Speaker A:But you have to know going in that it's not.
Speaker A:This isn't going to be exactly what you think it's going to be.
Speaker A:And I think the last part, it's not Legos, as much as we might want it to be.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And don't get bullied.
Speaker A:Don't get pushed around.
Speaker A:And you need to find the right fit that you guys can kind of work together and know how to disagree.
Speaker A:But it really is frustrating when I see people getting pushed around and being told, no, no, no, just trust me, I know what I'm doing.
Speaker A:Just shut up.
Speaker A:I'll make the change.
Speaker A:It'll be fine.
Speaker A:Like, no, you don't have to agree to that.
Speaker A:And I think there's a position of power, and we all.
Speaker A:With anything in life, we kind of tend to rely on experts.
Speaker A:But a lot of the times you have to be able to take a step back and kind of trust your Spidey sense and just know that if this doesn't smell right, it probably isn't.
Speaker A:You don't need an attorney at $350 an hour to tell you that.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker B:And my other rule is, if it's not written, done, it doesn't exist.
Speaker C:Yeah, that was frustrating as a contractor myself, right.
Speaker C:Hearing those stories like, oh, man, super frustrating.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Don't.
Speaker A:It goes both ways.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, Joseph, before we head out, what's the best way of.
Speaker B:People are like, oh, I'm in my own nightmare right now, and they need help.
Speaker B:How do they find you?
Speaker B:You can hear their horror story.
Speaker B:Maybe we can talk about it next time.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:Now that we're talking, I'm like, I would love to just do some of this in Oregon.
Speaker A:It sounds pretty awesome.
Speaker A:But I would just.
Speaker A:I would just say you just be on the lookout for an attorney who's also going to approach it this way, because the last thing you need once you're in a bunch of is to get even deeper into that by just funneling in legal fees.
Speaker A:Someone needs to be on the same page as you and understand that this is your child, this project is your child.
Speaker A:And we're trying to get you through the project.
Speaker A:We're not trying to get you through a fight with the contractor, because that shouldn't matter as much as the project.
Speaker A:And again, if we just take that step back to the very beginning of what's the whole point of this?
Speaker A:It's to finish the job and get through what you wanted to get through so that you have the finished product.
Speaker A:So I'd say anyone who's in the middle of this needs to.
Speaker A:Needs to remember that.
Speaker A:And also, I don't know what that was.
Speaker A:Needs to.
Speaker A:It needs to.
Speaker C:Colombia, man.
Speaker C:We like fireworks in the middle of the day.
Speaker C:Come on.
Speaker C:Viva Columbia.
Speaker A:And have a little bit of that type of attitude about it.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Joseph Brinkman, thanks for coming on today, man.
Speaker B:I just really appreciate what you're doing out there for homeowners, because I tell you what, this is such.
Speaker B:And it's just such a big, important part of any remodel project when you're bringing someone in to do it.
Speaker B:And that's super important.
Speaker B:And I think it's just one of those things that this is the roadmap for your project, and it's.
Speaker B:You got to pay attention to it, brother.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Well, I appreciate you guys.
Speaker A:It's been a pleasure and good luck to all the homeowners out there and diving into their new projects.
Speaker B:All right, brother.
Speaker C:Great talking with you, Joseph.
Speaker C:Thanks for coming.
Speaker B:For Johnny, I'm Eric G. You've been listening to around the House.
Speaker B:Thanks for tuning in to the the around the House Pro Insider.
Speaker B:We are happy to be back.
Speaker B:Make sure you subscribe.
Speaker B:So, you know, to catch the next episode.
Speaker C:Man, I need to focus now.
Speaker C:What is that?
